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Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potential Refunding Nightmare

Cliff Bailey
$organization

We recently switched to Element and so far, for the most part, it has been running smoothly. However, we recently found that Element only keeps transactions in their system for 120 days. This was not obvious to us in any documentation we had and is not included as part of the installation process. I’m sure it’s out there somewhere but suffice it to say, we didn't see it.

That means after 120 days you can’t process a refund as you normally would in Tessitura because refunds are based on transactions. If the transaction has been removed from Element it can’t be referenced and an error will be generated upon authorization.

If we needed to do a refund to a patron’s credit card after 120 days we can’t actually process the refund in Tessitura which would leave us with two options according to Element when I spoke with them at the conference. First, we could issue the credit to their account for another performance. This is basically a no-go for us. We don’t want to anger the patron by not crediting their card back in the case of an issue being our fault. Our second option would be to call Element and have them do a “blind credit”. In that case, we would need to provide the credit card information, which we would have to call the patron to obtain, and then tell Element how much to credit to the account. This is the process we would have to use.

It may not be obvious why this is a problem and at first I didn't think it was either. So every now and again we might have to get a patron’s credit card information and then put in a call to Element, no big deal. Then our director of ticketing brought up show cancellations. This happens more often than I thought it did and we often start selling shows more than 120 days out.  

I wrote a query to see how bad of a problem this could potentially be. There were 314 shows since the 2012-2013 season that had tickets bought more than 120 days before the show. 41 of those shows sold to 100+ patrons (not tickets, but patrons) before that mark. One of them sold to 505 patrons before that mark. That show took place just last year and was at an outdoor venue which can be a volatile situation.

If that show would have had to cancel day of or the day before our organization would have needed to have contact with 505 patrons, get their credit card information, and then call Element to have each one credited. Right now, to my understanding, other than on account credits (again, a no-go) we have no other option.

Element is not going to change their practice of deleting transaction after 120 days. We are but a small segment of a very high security business. The only fix, according to Element, would be for Tessitura to implement a way for blind credits to be processed within the application.

We're basically waiting for Tessitura to issue a fix to this and we can't know for sure when that will be or if they even plan on doing it. Blind credit processing could be a security risk as a person could issue a credit to a card without a transaction being associated. This means an unscrupulous person could issue blind credits in order to steal from the organization. I’m sure Tessitura would be hesitant to implement it and so I don't expect it any time soon if ever (here’s hoping I'm wrong!)

Does anybody have any ideas on what could be done about this? I'm hoping I've just missed something.

Thanks!



[edited by: Cliff Bailey at 8:59 AM (GMT -6) on 26 Aug 2015]
Parents
  • $organization

    Thank you for the clarification Chuck. I think the conundrum comes from what Element says and what Tessitura says. There is no clear, unified document telling us as users (in clear language), what will happen with Element as a payment processor, as you laid out below. I’ve spoken with Element about issues with a previous licensee I was with when they transitioned to Element. They purchased the recommended swiping devices that Element said were compatible with Tessitura (and would also encrypt the credit card number). They came to find out that, those devices, in fact, didn’t work with controlled batches and experienced some embarrassing issues with donors. I think it would be very helpful if the Network and Element came together with documentation about using them as the payment gateway and some “industry best practices” that we as users could follow. I personally felt I was getting the “he said, she said” treatment from Element as they said it was not an issue with the devices and it was a Tessitura issue.

     

    Since payment processing and the storage of payment information will always be a part of our collective business (and is only going to get more restrictive with time), any work the Network can do to make these payment processing changes much clearer (especially as they pertain to Element – the suggested payment processor from Tessitura) would be extremely helpful.

     

    Christopher Cuhel | Database Coordinator

    The 5th Avenue Theatre

    1308 5th Avenue Theatre, Seattle WA  98101

    p 206.971.7916 f 206.292.9610

     

    Seattle's Acclaimed Non-Profit Musical Theater Company

     

    Website |  Facebook |  Twitter |  Youtube

     

    From: Tessitura Technical Forum [mailto:forums-technical@tessituranetwork.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Reif
    Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 11:11 AM
    To: Christopher Cuhel
    Subject: Re: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potential Refunding Nightmare

     

    It seems as if some clarification is needed here and I hope this helps. 

    Tessitura has always had the ability to store credit cards and we are PA-DSS certified to continue to do that.  Nothing in any new version of Tessitura has changed this ability.  It has also always been the case that some sites have preferred not to store card data and we have the ability to configure the software to do that as well.

    New functionality in v12.1 and v12.5 provides additional new options available for card handling.  Following is a summary of the options currently available.

    1. You can continue to store credit cards as you have done in the past, using them for refunds and automated billing when necessary.
    2. You can decide not to store any credit card data on your system at all.
    3. You can decide not to store actual card data and instead decide to tokenize the cards that you use for automated billing.  This allows you to continue to do automated billing without storing card data.   There is a token storage fee for Element users.  Tokenization is not currently an option for TNS users in the UK and Ireland.
    4. Cards that are tokenized in Tessitura can be used for all of the same purposes that regularly stored cards are.  That means that you can select a tokenized card from the list of stored credit cards and refund directly to it.
    5. Regardless of whether you store any credit card data in Tessitura, Element users in North American can also refund credit card transactions back to the original card by using the Refund by Transaction number feature.  Element’s retention policy for this feature is to store the transaction reference and card data for 120 days.  Payment Express users also have this ability for most transaction types.
    6. If you elect to neither store the card information or tokenize, then you have increased security but have left yourself in a position of not having access to card information after 120 days, in which case you would have to contact the customer if a refund were necessary.

    I want to make it clear that we have not taken away any existing functionality for credit card handling—just provided some new options.  These new options do have some limitations because each of them are designed to provide greater levels of security.

    V12 also introduced support for encrypted card readers—this option was also designed to provide additional security and ease of PCI compliance by keeping credit card data off of your network.  However, these new types of secured readers are not required—you can continue to use your existing card swipes.  Doing so does mean that unencrypted card data is transmitted on your network as it has always been.

    It is possible that future security regulations may force us to restrict the options available in Tessitura for card storage and handling.  But at the moment, we are providing only additional capability to provide you with more options.  Data security, and in particular payment data security, is something that we take very seriously and so we are always studying and participating in best practices in this area.


    Hope this information helps explain things.

     

    From: Cliff Bailey <bounce-cliffbailey2866@tessituranetwork.com>
    Sent: 8/26/2015 8:58:43 AM

    We recently switched to Element and so far, for the most part, it has been running smoothly. However, we recently found that Element only keeps transactions in their system for 120 days. This was not obvious to us in any documentation we had and is not included as part of the installation process. I’m sure it’s out there somewhere but suffice it to say, we didn't see it.

    That means after 120 days you can’t process a refund as you normally would in Tessitura because refunds are based on transactions. If the transaction has been removed from Element it can’t be referenced and an error will be generated upon authorization.

    If we needed to do a refund to a patron’s credit card after 120 days we can’t actually process the refund in Tessitura which would leave us with two options according to Element when I spoke with them at the conference. First, we could issue the credit to their account for another performance. This is basically a no-go for us. We don’t want to anger the patron by not crediting their card back in the case of an issue being our fault. Our second option would be to call Element and have them do a “blind credit”. In that case, we would need to provide the credit card information, which we would have to call the patron to obtain, and then tell Element how much to credit to the account. This is the process we would have to use.

    It may not be obvious why this is a problem and at first I didn't think it was either. So every now and again we might have to get a patron’s credit card information and then put in a call to Element, no big deal. Then our director of ticketing brought up show cancellations. This happens more often than I thought it did and we often start selling shows more than 120 days out.  

    I wrote a query to see how bad of a problem this could potentially be. There were 314 shows since the 2012-2013 season that had tickets bought more than 120 days before the show. 41 of those shows sold to 100+ patrons (not tickets, but patrons) before that mark. One of them sold to 505 patrons before that mark. That show took place just last year and was at an outdoor venue which can be a volatile situation.

    If that show would have had to cancel day of or the day before our organization would have needed to have contact with 505 patrons, get their credit card information, and then call Element to have each one credited. Right now, to my understanding, other than on account credits (again, a no-go) we have no other option.

    Element is not going to change their practice of deleting transaction after 120 days. We are but a small segment of a very high security business. The only fix, according to Element, would be for Tessitura to implement a way for blind credits to be processed within the application.

    We're basically waiting for Tessitura to issue a fix to this and we can't know for sure when that will be or if they even plan on doing it. Blind credit processing could be a security risk as a person could issue a credit to a card without a transaction being associated. This means an unscrupulous person could issue blind credits in order to steal from the organization. I’m sure Tessitura would be hesitant to implement it and so I don't expect it any time soon if ever (here’s hoping I'm wrong!)

    Does anybody have any ideas on what could be done about this? I'm hoping I've just missed something.

    Thanks!




    This message was sent automatically to you by www.tessituranetwork.com because you subscribed to the Tessitura Technical Forum. You may reply to this message to post to the Technical forum or visit the site to search, read and post to the forums. In the interest of keeping the forum posts from becoming cluttered, we encourage you to delete previous message text from your reply before sending. Thank you!

  • $organization in reply to Christopher Cuhel

    So, if we chose to move away from housing credit card data in Tessitura (which was the intent of using Element), and we need to do a long term billing period (say a donation every month), would we need to set up a calendar reminder every 119 days to make sure we adjust the billing method so the credit card information is retained? Part of the major reason many of us are transitioning to Element is because we want as minimal exposure to credit card breech as possible. I was under the impression that other then tokenization (should a company choose to do this) and removing card number storage from Tessitura, processing credit cards would be essentially the same. It appears this is not the case.

     

    Again, I will ask that Tessitura and Element work together to provide to users an FAQ sheet so that we can fully understand the changes and be able to make better informed decisions on how we will process credit cards and with which company we will use to do that.

     

    Christopher Cuhel | Database Coordinator

    The 5th Avenue Theatre

    1308 5th Avenue Theatre, Seattle WA  98101

    p 206.971.7916 f 206.292.9610

     

    Seattle's Acclaimed Non-Profit Musical Theater Company

     

    Website |  Facebook |  Twitter |  Youtube

     

    From: Tessitura Technical Forum [mailto:forums-technical@tessituranetwork.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Reif
    Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 1:43 PM
    To: Christopher Cuhel
    Subject: RE: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potentia~��6(!�f�

     

    If you store the credit card yourself (as most people have always been doing), then you can issue a refund at any point, just as you have always been able to do. 

    From: Cliff Bailey <bounce-cliffbailey2866@tessituranetwork.com>
    Sent: 8/26/2015 6:58:06 PM

    Chuck,

     

    Thank you very much for your response. It was very informative but didn't specifically address what I need to know.

     

    I realize I had a long post so I want to make my questions more plain;

     

    If you're using element, 120 days after a sale can we use tessitura to refund a credit card?

     

    If not, what do you recommend we do in the case of a show that is canceled where 500 customers need to have their credit cards refunded?

     

    Thanks!



    -------- Original message --------
    From: Chuck Reif <bounce-chuckreif3941@tessituranetwork.com>
    Date: 08/26/2015 2:09 PM (GMT-05:00)
    To: Cliff Bailey <cbailey@kentuckycenter.org>
    Subject: Re: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potential Refunding Nightmare

    It seems as if some clarification is needed here and I hope this helps. 

    Tessitura has always had the ability to store credit cards and we are PA-DSS certified to continue to do that.  Nothing in any new version of Tessitura has changed this ability.  It has also always been the case that some sites have preferred not to store card data and we have the ability to configure the software to do that as well.

    New functionality in v12.1 and v12.5 provides additional new options available for card handling.  Following is a summary of the options currently available.

    1. You can continue to store credit cards as you have done in the past, using them for refunds and automated billing when necessary.
    2. You can decide not to store any credit card data on your system at all.
    3. You can decide not to store actual card data and instead decide to tokenize the cards that you use for automated billing.  This allows you to continue to do automated billing without storing card data.   There is a token storage fee for Element users.  Tokenization is not currently an option for TNS users in the UK and Ireland.
    4. Cards that are tokenized in Tessitura can be used for all of the same purposes that regularly stored cards are.  That means that you can select a tokenized card from the list of stored credit cards and refund directly to it.
    5. Regardless of whether you store any credit card data in Tessitura, Element users in North American can also refund credit card transactions back to the original card by using the Refund by Transaction number feature.  Element’s retention policy for this feature is to store the transaction reference and card data for 120 days.  Payment Express users also have this ability for most transaction types.
    6. If you elect to neither store the card information or tokenize, then you have increased security but have left yourself in a position of not having access to card information after 120 days, in which case you would have to contact the customer if a refund were necessary.

    I want to make it clear that we have not taken away any existing functionality for credit card handling—just provided some new options.  These new options do have some limitations because each of them are designed to provide greater levels of security.

    V12 also introduced support for encrypted card readers—this option was also designed to provide additional security and ease of PCI compliance by keeping credit card data off of your network.  However, these new types of secured readers are not required—you can continue to use your existing card swipes.  Doing so does mean that unencrypted card data is transmitted on your network as it has always been.

    It is possible that future security regulations may force us to restrict the options available in Tessitura for card storage and handling.  But at the moment, we are providing only additional capability to provide you with more options.  Data security, and in particular payment data security, is something that we take very seriously and so we are always studying and participating in best practices in this area.


    Hope this information helps explain things.

     

    From: Cliff Bailey <bounce-cliffbailey2866@tessituranetwork.com>
    Sent: 8/26/2015 8:58:43 AM

    We recently switched to Element and so far, for the most part, it has been running smoothly. However, we recently found that Element only keeps transactions in their system for 120 days. This was not obvious to us in any documentation we had and is not included as part of the installation process. I’m sure it’s out there somewhere but suffice it to say, we didn't see it.

    That means after 120 days you can’t process a refund as you normally would in Tessitura because refunds are based on transactions. If the transaction has been removed from Element it can’t be referenced and an error will be generated upon authorization.

    If we needed to do a refund to a patron’s credit card after 120 days we can’t actually process the refund in Tessitura which would leave us with two options according to Element when I spoke with them at the conference. First, we could issue the credit to their account for another performance. This is basically a no-go for us. We don’t want to anger the patron by not crediting their card back in the case of an issue being our fault. Our second option would be to call Element and have them do a “blind credit”. In that case, we would need to provide the credit card information, which we would have to call the patron to obtain, and then tell Element how much to credit to the account. This is the process we would have to use.

    It may not be obvious why this is a problem and at first I didn't think it was either. So every now and again we might have to get a patron’s credit card information and then put in a call to Element, no big deal. Then our director of ticketing brought up show cancellations. This happens more often than I thought it did and we often start selling shows more than 120 days out.  

    I wrote a query to see how bad of a problem this could potentially be. There were 314 shows since the 2012-2013 season that had tickets bought more than 120 days before the show. 41 of those shows sold to 100+ patrons (not tickets, but patrons) before that mark. One of them sold to 505 patrons before that mark. That show took place just last year and was at an outdoor venue which can be a volatile situation.

    If that show would have had to cancel day of or the day before our organization would have needed to have contact with 505 patrons, get their credit card information, and then call Element to have each one credited. Right now, to my understanding, other than on account credits (again, a no-go) we have no other option.

    Element is not going to change their practice of deleting transaction after 120 days. We are but a small segment of a very high security business. The only fix, according to Element, would be for Tessitura to implement a way for blind credits to be processed within the application.

    We're basically waiting for Tessitura to issue a fix to this and we can't know for sure when that will be or if they even plan on doing it. Blind credit processing could be a security risk as a person could issue a credit to a card without a transaction being associated. This means an unscrupulous person could issue blind credits in order to steal from the organization. I’m sure Tessitura would be hesitant to implement it and so I don't expect it any time soon if ever (here’s hoping I'm wrong!)

    Does anybody have any ideas on what could be done about this? I'm hoping I've just missed something.

    Thanks!



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    Cliff Bailey

    Database/Tessitura Administrator

    502.566.5101 p | 502.645.2428 m

     

    The Kentucky Center for the Performing Arts

    501 West Main Street, Louisville, KY  40202

    www.kentuckycenter.org

     

    Facebook | YouTube | Flicker | Twitter  | Blog

     

     



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  • $organization in reply to Kevin Sheehan

    Tessitura has always been able to do blind credits. We are on element, and don't use tokenization or the "refund prior payments" 12.5 feature yet, and so technically speaking every one of the refunds we've ever processed have been "blind credits".

    Agreed that there should be better documentation on all of this. Element sales reps are probably not the best resource for how the Tessitura application works.

  • $organization in reply to Chuck Reif

    That is exactly right.  Refund by Transaction Number is a new feature which allows refunds without storing credit card data at all (for 120 days in Element's case).  The ability to do refunds on credit cards when you have the data (either the actual card number or a token) is not at all changed and can still be used as it always has.

  • $organization in reply to Nick Reilingh

    If you store the credit card yourself (as most people have always been doing), then you can issue a refund at any point, just as you have always been able to do. 

  • $organization in reply to Former Member

    Hi Chris, we are working on merging this topic into one thread; thanks for bringing it up.

    Our community platform attempts to post replies via email using the post subject--I think the reason this one is getting split into several threads is due to the odd characters in the subject.  For the time being, I recommend not replying to this thread via email, but rather posting on the website itself. 

    The original post is here and this thread has several of the replies and clarifications.

    Thanks,
    Todd

    Tessitura Network Webmaster

  • $organization in reply to Chuck Reif

    As others have noted, this important forum post seems to be splintered into several threads.  We're looking into why that is and how we might fix it but in the meantime I wanted to try to clarify again.  First this post for some more detailed information.  In summary:

    No credit card functionality whatsoever has been removed in V12.  Whatever you could do before you can still do.

    We have added tokenization to V12.5 as an option for Element and Payment Express users.  This is totally optional, although there is a storage charge for Element users.  Contrary to what has been said in some posts here, tokens do NOT expire.  They can be used for recurring billing and refunds and additional charges for as long as card (stored in Element's servers) is valid.

    We have also added the new ability to refund by transaction reference number.  This is also completely optional.  As noted here, those transaction reference numbers in Element's case are removed from their servers after 120 days.  Even after this 120 day period you can still refund to a card number, provided that you have stored it either as a token or as you are doing now, encrypted in the Tessitura database.

    We are working internally to see what additional learning resources we can bring to this issue to make it clearer.  Obviously, with the introduction of chipped cards (EMV) in the United States, there are many questions that come up. 

    The short answer here is that no credit card functionality has been removed in v12.  You can continue to operate as you do now and work to decide which, if any, of the new options you want to take advantage of.

     

  • $organization in reply to Nick Reilingh

    Chuck,


    Thank you very much for your response. It was very informative but didn't specifically address what I need to know.

    I realize I had a long post so I want to make my questions more plain;

    If you're using element, 120 days after a sale can we use tessitura to refund a credit card?

    If not, what do you recommend we do in the case of a show that is canceled where 500 customers need to have their credit cards refunded?

    Thanks!


    --------
    Original message --------
    From: Chuck Reif <bounce-chuckreif3941@tessituranetwork.com>
    Date: 08/26/2015 2:09 PM (GMT-05:00)
    To: Cliff Bailey <cbailey@kentuckycenter.org>
    Subject: Re: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potential Refunding Nightmare

    It seems as if some clarification is needed here and I hope this helps. 

    Tessitura has always had the ability to store credit cards and we are PA-DSS certified to continue to do that.  Nothing in any new version of Tessitura has changed this ability.  It has also always been the case that some sites have preferred not to store card data and we have the ability to configure the software to do that as well.

    New functionality in v12.1 and v12.5 provides additional new options available for card handling.  Following is a summary of the options currently available.

    1. You can continue to store credit cards as you have done in the past, using them for refunds and automated billing when necessary.
    2. You can decide not to store any credit card data on your system at all.
    3. You can decide not to store actual card data and instead decide to tokenize the cards that you use for automated billing.  This allows you to continue to do automated billing without storing card data.   There is a token storage fee for Element users.  Tokenization is not currently an option for TNS users in the UK and Ireland.
    4. Cards that are tokenized in Tessitura can be used for all of the same purposes that regularly stored cards are.  That means that you can select a tokenized card from the list of stored credit cards and refund directly to it.
    5. Regardless of whether you store any credit card data in Tessitura, Element users in North American can also refund credit card transactions back to the original card by using the Refund by Transaction number feature.  Element’s retention policy for this feature is to store the transaction reference and card data for 120 days.  Payment Express users also have this ability for most transaction types.
    6. If you elect to neither store the card information or tokenize, then you have increased security but have left yourself in a position of not having access to card information after 120 days, in which case you would have to contact the customer if a refund were necessary.

    I want to make it clear that we have not taken away any existing functionality for credit card handling—just provided some new options.  These new options do have some limitations because each of them are designed to provide greater levels of security.

    V12 also introduced support for encrypted card readers—this option was also designed to provide additional security and ease of PCI compliance by keeping credit card data off of your network.  However, these new types of secured readers are not required—you can continue to use your existing card swipes.  Doing so does mean that unencrypted card data is transmitted on your network as it has always been.

    It is possible that future security regulations may force us to restrict the options available in Tessitura for card storage and handling.  But at the moment, we are providing only additional capability to provide you with more options.  Data security, and in particular payment data security, is something that we take very seriously and so we are always studying and participating in best practices in this area.


    Hope this information helps explain things.


    From: Cliff Bailey <bounce-cliffbailey2866@tessituranetwork.com>
    Sent: 8/26/2015 8:58:43 AM

    We recently switched to Element and so far, for the most part, it has been running smoothly. However, we recently found that Element only keeps transactions in their system for 120 days. This was not obvious to us in any documentation we had and is not included as part of the installation process. I’m sure it’s out there somewhere but suffice it to say, we didn't see it.

    That means after 120 days you can’t process a refund as you normally would in Tessitura because refunds are based on transactions. If the transaction has been removed from Element it can’t be referenced and an error will be generated upon authorization.

    If we needed to do a refund to a patron’s credit card after 120 days we can’t actually process the refund in Tessitura which would leave us with two options according to Element when I spoke with them at the conference. First, we could issue the credit to their account for another performance. This is basically a no-go for us. We don’t want to anger the patron by not crediting their card back in the case of an issue being our fault. Our second option would be to call Element and have them do a “blind credit”. In that case, we would need to provide the credit card information, which we would have to call the patron to obtain, and then tell Element how much to credit to the account. This is the process we would have to use.

    It may not be obvious why this is a problem and at first I didn't think it was either. So every now and again we might have to get a patron’s credit card information and then put in a call to Element, no big deal. Then our director of ticketing brought up show cancellations. This happens more often than I thought it did and we often start selling shows more than 120 days out.  

    I wrote a query to see how bad of a problem this could potentially be. There were 314 shows since the 2012-2013 season that had tickets bought more than 120 days before the show. 41 of those shows sold to 100+ patrons (not tickets, but patrons) before that mark. One of them sold to 505 patrons before that mark. That show took place just last year and was at an outdoor venue which can be a volatile situation.

    If that show would have had to cancel day of or the day before our organization would have needed to have contact with 505 patrons, get their credit card information, and then call Element to have each one credited. Right now, to my understanding, other than on account credits (again, a no-go) we have no other option.

    Element is not going to change their practice of deleting transaction after 120 days. We are but a small segment of a very high security business. The only fix, according to Element, would be for Tessitura to implement a way for blind credits to be processed within the application.

    We're basically waiting for Tessitura to issue a fix to this and we can't know for sure when that will be or if they even plan on doing it. Blind credit processing could be a security risk as a person could issue a credit to a card without a transaction being associated. This means an unscrupulous person could issue blind credits in order to steal from the organization. I’m sure Tessitura would be hesitant to implement it and so I don't expect it any time soon if ever (here’s hoping I'm wrong!)

    Does anybody have any ideas on what could be done about this? I'm hoping I've just missed something.

    Thanks!



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    View this message online at http://www.tessituranetwork.com/Community/forums/p/14238/43885.aspx#43885 or reply to this message
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    This message was sent automatically to you by www.tessituranetwork.com because you subscribed to the Tessitura Technical Forum. You may reply to this message to post to the Technical forum or visit the site to search, read and post to the forums. In the interest of keeping the forum posts from becoming cluttered, we encourage you to delete previous message text from your reply before sending. Thank you!

     

    Cliff Bailey

    Database/Tessitura Administrator

    502.566.5101 p | 502.645.2428 m

     

    The Kentucky Center for the Performing Arts

    501 West Main Street, Louisville, KY  40202

    www.kentuckycenter.org

     

    Facebook | YouTube | Flicker | Twitter  | Blog

     

     

  • Former Member
    Former Member $organization in reply to Chuck Reif

    Hey Chuck

    Just on a slight tangent - do you know if Payment Express will have a similar rule for the retention period for tokenised transactions?

    Ken

  • $organization in reply to Chuck Reif

    Thank you all for taking time to put this all together. This makes much more sense now Chuck and I understand what you are saying. Everything got fractured and skewed. I look forward to see how tokenization works once we are on V12.5. 



    [edited by: Christopher Cuhel at 7:03 PM (GMT -6) on 26 Aug 2015]
  • $organization in reply to Kevin Sheehan
    Nick,

    Thanks for your reply, but this is not how element explained it to me and I still don't quite understand.

    Tessitura uses the transaction to refund a credit card so how can that happen if element doesn't have it anymore? At that point tessitura can do a blind credit? Element told me tessitura does not yet do that.

    I agree that element storing cards on their sever shifts risk, but what they have told me is that they only take that risk for 120 days. After that they dump transactions as well as card information.

    It sounds like Element might not be on the same page. Are there documents I could be referred to about this topic?


    --------
    Original message --------
    From: Nick Reilingh <bounce-nicholasreilingh4883@tessituranetwork.com>
    Date: 08/26/2015 3:22 PM (GMT-05:00)
    To: Cliff Bailey <cbailey@kentuckycenter.org>
    Subject: RE: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potentia~��6(!�f�

    Hi Cliff,

    If you're using element, you can use Tessitura to refund a card at any time if you have that card stored in tessitura, or you have the full number on hand, OR if you are using Tokenization.

    If you choose not to store credit card numbers in tessitura (or tokenization), then you need to have the card number on hand in order to process a refund. You would do that within the regular payments screen in Tessitura.

    The exception to this, if you choose not to store cards in Tessi OR use tokenization, is that Element gives you a 120-day grace period to refund a charge before they purge the data from their systems.

    You have to decide what makes sense out of the above for your business rules. Element's grace period is not likely to change, nor should it IMO. As arts organizations, we often have needs that go beyond this, and so we have options like tokenization and stored card numbers to accommodate this.

    Think of it this way -- for element to store numbers longer than 120 days would greatly increase their target footprint. You can take on that risk yourself by storing numbers in your own DB, OR pay element a premium for card tokenization where they will take on that risk for you.

    From: Cliff Bailey <bounce-cliffbailey2866@tessituranetwork.com>
    Sent: 8/26/2015 6:58:06 PM

    Chuck,


    Thank you very much for your response. It was very informative but didn't specifically address what I need to know.

    I realize I had a long post so I want to make my questions more plain;

    If you're using element, 120 days after a sale can we use tessitura to refund a credit card?

    If not, what do you recommend we do in the case of a show that is canceled where 500 customers need to have their credit cards refunded?

    Thanks!


    -------- Original message --------
    From: Chuck Reif <bounce-chuckreif3941@tessituranetwork.com>
    Date: 08/26/2015 2:09 PM (GMT-05:00)
    To: Cliff Bailey <cbailey@kentuckycenter.org>
    Subject: Re: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potential Refunding Nightmare

    It seems as if some clarification is needed here and I hope this helps. 

    Tessitura has always had the ability to store credit cards and we are PA-DSS certified to continue to do that.  Nothing in any new version of Tessitura has changed this ability.  It has also always been the case that some sites have preferred not to store card data and we have the ability to configure the software to do that as well.

    New functionality in v12.1 and v12.5 provides additional new options available for card handling.  Following is a summary of the options currently available.

    1. You can continue to store credit cards as you have done in the past, using them for refunds and automated billing when necessary.
    2. You can decide not to store any credit card data on your system at all.
    3. You can decide not to store actual card data and instead decide to tokenize the cards that you use for automated billing.  This allows you to continue to do automated billing without storing card data.   There is a token storage fee for Element users.  Tokenization is not currently an option for TNS users in the UK and Ireland.
    4. Cards that are tokenized in Tessitura can be used for all of the same purposes that regularly stored cards are.  That means that you can select a tokenized card from the list of stored credit cards and refund directly to it.
    5. Regardless of whether you store any credit card data in Tessitura, Element users in North American can also refund credit card transactions back to the original card by using the Refund by Transaction number feature.  Element’s retention policy for this feature is to store the transaction reference and card data for 120 days.  Payment Express users also have this ability for most transaction types.
    6. If you elect to neither store the card information or tokenize, then you have increased security but have left yourself in a position of not having access to card information after 120 days, in which case you would have to contact the customer if a refund were necessary.

    I want to make it clear that we have not taken away any existing functionality for credit card handling—just provided some new options.  These new options do have some limitations because each of them are designed to provide greater levels of security.

    V12 also introduced support for encrypted card readers—this option was also designed to provide additional security and ease of PCI compliance by keeping credit card data off of your network.  However, these new types of secured readers are not required—you can continue to use your existing card swipes.  Doing so does mean that unencrypted card data is transmitted on your network as it has always been.

    It is possible that future security regulations may force us to restrict the options available in Tessitura for card storage and handling.  But at the moment, we are providing only additional capability to provide you with more options.  Data security, and in particular payment data security, is something that we take very seriously and so we are always studying and participating in best practices in this area.


    Hope this information helps explain things.


    From: Cliff Bailey <bounce-cliffbailey2866@tessituranetwork.com>
    Sent: 8/26/2015 8:58:43 AM

    We recently switched to Element and so far, for the most part, it has been running smoothly. However, we recently found that Element only keeps transactions in their system for 120 days. This was not obvious to us in any documentation we had and is not included as part of the installation process. I’m sure it’s out there somewhere but suffice it to say, we didn't see it.

    That means after 120 days you can’t process a refund as you normally would in Tessitura because refunds are based on transactions. If the transaction has been removed from Element it can’t be referenced and an error will be generated upon authorization.

    If we needed to do a refund to a patron’s credit card after 120 days we can’t actually process the refund in Tessitura which would leave us with two options according to Element when I spoke with them at the conference. First, we could issue the credit to their account for another performance. This is basically a no-go for us. We don’t want to anger the patron by not crediting their card back in the case of an issue being our fault. Our second option would be to call Element and have them do a “blind credit”. In that case, we would need to provide the credit card information, which we would have to call the patron to obtain, and then tell Element how much to credit to the account. This is the process we would have to use.

    It may not be obvious why this is a problem and at first I didn't think it was either. So every now and again we might have to get a patron’s credit card information and then put in a call to Element, no big deal. Then our director of ticketing brought up show cancellations. This happens more often than I thought it did and we often start selling shows more than 120 days out.  

    I wrote a query to see how bad of a problem this could potentially be. There were 314 shows since the 2012-2013 season that had tickets bought more than 120 days before the show. 41 of those shows sold to 100+ patrons (not tickets, but patrons) before that mark. One of them sold to 505 patrons before that mark. That show took place just last year and was at an outdoor venue which can be a volatile situation.

    If that show would have had to cancel day of or the day before our organization would have needed to have contact with 505 patrons, get their credit card information, and then call Element to have each one credited. Right now, to my understanding, other than on account credits (again, a no-go) we have no other option.

    Element is not going to change their practice of deleting transaction after 120 days. We are but a small segment of a very high security business. The only fix, according to Element, would be for Tessitura to implement a way for blind credits to be processed within the application.

    We're basically waiting for Tessitura to issue a fix to this and we can't know for sure when that will be or if they even plan on doing it. Blind credit processing could be a security risk as a person could issue a credit to a card without a transaction being associated. This means an unscrupulous person could issue blind credits in order to steal from the organization. I’m sure Tessitura would be hesitant to implement it and so I don't expect it any time soon if ever (here’s hoping I'm wrong!)

    Does anybody have any ideas on what could be done about this? I'm hoping I've just missed something.

    Thanks!



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    Cliff Bailey

    Database/Tessitura Administrator

    502.566.5101 p | 502.645.2428 m

     

    The Kentucky Center for the Performing Arts

    501 West Main Street, Louisville, KY  40202

    www.kentuckycenter.org

     

    Facebook | YouTube | Flicker | Twitter  | Blog

     

     



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  • $organization in reply to Cliff Bailey

    Hi Cliff,

     

    You can use Tessitura to refund a credit card 120 days or more after the original transaction. To do so you will need the credit card number (because you are keeping it on file, because you tokenized it, or because you have called the customer and asked for the credit card number again). To process this refund you would process a negative payment (a credit) to the credit card by entering the credit card number (or selecting an on-file card or token) and authorizing that payment. This is what Element is referring to as a “blind credit,” and prior to v12.5 of Tessitura this was the only way of processing a credit card refund.

     

    In v12.5 we added new refund by reference number functionality. This functionality allows you to process a refund without the credit card number.  This new functionality is the only refund method that is limited to within 120 days from the original transaction.

     

    Does that clarify things?

     

    Kevin Sheehan

    Senior Technical Writer & Consultant

    Tessitura Network

    +1 888 643 5778 x 329

    ksheehan@tessituranetwork.com

     

  • $organization in reply to Christopher Cuhel
    Chuck,

    This is great news and is much appreciated. 


    --------
    Original message --------
    From: Chuck Reif <bounce-chuckreif3941@tessituranetwork.com>
    Date: 08/26/2015 4:41 PM (GMT-05:00)
    To: Cliff Bailey <cbailey@kentuckycenter.org>
    Subject: RE: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potentia~��6(!�f�

    If you store the credit card yourself (as most people have always been doing), then you can issue a refund at any point, just as you have always been able to do. 

    From: Cliff Bailey <bounce-cliffbailey2866@tessituranetwork.com>
    Sent: 8/26/2015 6:58:06 PM

    Chuck,


    Thank you very much for your response. It was very informative but didn't specifically address what I need to know.

    I realize I had a long post so I want to make my questions more plain;

    If you're using element, 120 days after a sale can we use tessitura to refund a credit card?

    If not, what do you recommend we do in the case of a show that is canceled where 500 customers need to have their credit cards refunded?

    Thanks!


    -------- Original message --------
    From: Chuck Reif <bounce-chuckreif3941@tessituranetwork.com>
    Date: 08/26/2015 2:09 PM (GMT-05:00)
    To: Cliff Bailey <cbailey@kentuckycenter.org>
    Subject: Re: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potential Refunding Nightmare

    It seems as if some clarification is needed here and I hope this helps. 

    Tessitura has always had the ability to store credit cards and we are PA-DSS certified to continue to do that.  Nothing in any new version of Tessitura has changed this ability.  It has also always been the case that some sites have preferred not to store card data and we have the ability to configure the software to do that as well.

    New functionality in v12.1 and v12.5 provides additional new options available for card handling.  Following is a summary of the options currently available.

    1. You can continue to store credit cards as you have done in the past, using them for refunds and automated billing when necessary.
    2. You can decide not to store any credit card data on your system at all.
    3. You can decide not to store actual card data and instead decide to tokenize the cards that you use for automated billing.  This allows you to continue to do automated billing without storing card data.   There is a token storage fee for Element users.  Tokenization is not currently an option for TNS users in the UK and Ireland.
    4. Cards that are tokenized in Tessitura can be used for all of the same purposes that regularly stored cards are.  That means that you can select a tokenized card from the list of stored credit cards and refund directly to it.
    5. Regardless of whether you store any credit card data in Tessitura, Element users in North American can also refund credit card transactions back to the original card by using the Refund by Transaction number feature.  Element’s retention policy for this feature is to store the transaction reference and card data for 120 days.  Payment Express users also have this ability for most transaction types.
    6. If you elect to neither store the card information or tokenize, then you have increased security but have left yourself in a position of not having access to card information after 120 days, in which case you would have to contact the customer if a refund were necessary.

    I want to make it clear that we have not taken away any existing functionality for credit card handling—just provided some new options.  These new options do have some limitations because each of them are designed to provide greater levels of security.

    V12 also introduced support for encrypted card readers—this option was also designed to provide additional security and ease of PCI compliance by keeping credit card data off of your network.  However, these new types of secured readers are not required—you can continue to use your existing card swipes.  Doing so does mean that unencrypted card data is transmitted on your network as it has always been.

    It is possible that future security regulations may force us to restrict the options available in Tessitura for card storage and handling.  But at the moment, we are providing only additional capability to provide you with more options.  Data security, and in particular payment data security, is something that we take very seriously and so we are always studying and participating in best practices in this area.


    Hope this information helps explain things.


    From: Cliff Bailey <bounce-cliffbailey2866@tessituranetwork.com>
    Sent: 8/26/2015 8:58:43 AM

    We recently switched to Element and so far, for the most part, it has been running smoothly. However, we recently found that Element only keeps transactions in their system for 120 days. This was not obvious to us in any documentation we had and is not included as part of the installation process. I’m sure it’s out there somewhere but suffice it to say, we didn't see it.

    That means after 120 days you can’t process a refund as you normally would in Tessitura because refunds are based on transactions. If the transaction has been removed from Element it can’t be referenced and an error will be generated upon authorization.

    If we needed to do a refund to a patron’s credit card after 120 days we can’t actually process the refund in Tessitura which would leave us with two options according to Element when I spoke with them at the conference. First, we could issue the credit to their account for another performance. This is basically a no-go for us. We don’t want to anger the patron by not crediting their card back in the case of an issue being our fault. Our second option would be to call Element and have them do a “blind credit”. In that case, we would need to provide the credit card information, which we would have to call the patron to obtain, and then tell Element how much to credit to the account. This is the process we would have to use.

    It may not be obvious why this is a problem and at first I didn't think it was either. So every now and again we might have to get a patron’s credit card information and then put in a call to Element, no big deal. Then our director of ticketing brought up show cancellations. This happens more often than I thought it did and we often start selling shows more than 120 days out.  

    I wrote a query to see how bad of a problem this could potentially be. There were 314 shows since the 2012-2013 season that had tickets bought more than 120 days before the show. 41 of those shows sold to 100+ patrons (not tickets, but patrons) before that mark. One of them sold to 505 patrons before that mark. That show took place just last year and was at an outdoor venue which can be a volatile situation.

    If that show would have had to cancel day of or the day before our organization would have needed to have contact with 505 patrons, get their credit card information, and then call Element to have each one credited. Right now, to my understanding, other than on account credits (again, a no-go) we have no other option.

    Element is not going to change their practice of deleting transaction after 120 days. We are but a small segment of a very high security business. The only fix, according to Element, would be for Tessitura to implement a way for blind credits to be processed within the application.

    We're basically waiting for Tessitura to issue a fix to this and we can't know for sure when that will be or if they even plan on doing it. Blind credit processing could be a security risk as a person could issue a credit to a card without a transaction being associated. This means an unscrupulous person could issue blind credits in order to steal from the organization. I’m sure Tessitura would be hesitant to implement it and so I don't expect it any time soon if ever (here’s hoping I'm wrong!)

    Does anybody have any ideas on what could be done about this? I'm hoping I've just missed something.

    Thanks!



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    Cliff Bailey

    Database/Tessitura Administrator

    502.566.5101 p | 502.645.2428 m

     

    The Kentucky Center for the Performing Arts

    501 West Main Street, Louisville, KY  40202

    www.kentuckycenter.org

     

    Facebook | YouTube | Flicker | Twitter  | Blog

     

     



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  • $organization in reply to Former Member

    Replying to this by e-mail and CC-ing the webmaster in the hope that this important discussion, which has somehow become split across seven threads (and counting), can somehow be merged into one.

     

    Thanks.

     

    —Chris

     

    ********************

    Chris Jensen

    Database Administrator

    Information Technology & Services

    Guthrie Theater

    612.225.6052

     

     

     

    From: Tessitura Technical Forum [mailto:forums-technical@tessituranetwork.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Reif
    Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 3:31 PM
    To: Jensen, Chris <ChrisJ@guthrietheater.org>
    Subject: RE: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potentia~    ��6(!�f�

     

    That is exactly right.  Refund by Transaction Number is a new feature which allows refunds without storing credit card data at all (for 120 days in Element's case).  The ability to do refunds on credit cards when you have the data (either the actual card number or a token) is not at all changed and can still be used as it always has.

    From: Dan Spees <bounce-danielspees8805@tessituranetwork.com>
    Sent: 8/26/2015 3:27:15 PM

    Perhaps some of the confusion is being generated by the Note statement in the Refund Prior Payments section of the What's New in v12.5 document (page 67).  It reads...

    "Note: If your payment processing provider is Element, payments that are older than 120 days cannot be refunded with this functionality and will return an error on authorization."

    It seems that some have read this to mean that that the Refund Prior Payments button will be the only method of issuing a credit and that it would require the Element Transaction to still be available which will not be the case after 120 days.

    If further seams that Chuck is saying that there is and will continue to be a method that is different than the "Refund Prior Payments" button that will allow a credit to be issued as long as either the card or token are on file.

    If the understanding above is correct, then there doesn't seem to be any lost functionality.  The current method of issuing a credit will remain and the new v12.5 Refund Prior Payment button will work in any case where the Element transaction still exists.

    Chuck?  Did I get that right?

     



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  • $organization in reply to Chuck Reif

    We also have the same concern about recurring charges for a long term pledge that spans many months. We certainly do not want to contact the donor every four months asking for the credit card number over and over. What is the recommended procedure/solution for this?

    Randall A. Mitchell
    Director of Information Systems | The Phoenix Symphony | Tel. 602-452-0440 | Fax. 602-253-1772
    www.phoenixsymphony.org | 1 N. 1st Street, Ste. 200, Phoenix, Az 85004

     

    From: Tessitura Technical Forum [mailto:forums-technical@tessituranetwork.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Cuhel
    Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 2:13 PM
    To: Randall A. Mitchell <rmitchell@phoenixsymphony.org>
    Subject: RE: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potentia~ 6(! f

     

    So, if we chose to move away from housing credit card data in Tessitura (which was the intent of using Element), and we need to do a long term billing period (say a donation every month), would we need to set up a calendar reminder every 119 days to make sure we adjust the billing method so the credit card information is retained? Part of the major reason many of us are transitioning to Element is because we want as minimal exposure to credit card breech as possible. I was under the impression that other then tokenization (should a company choose to do this) and removing card number storage from Tessitura, processing credit cards would be essentially the same. It appears this is not the case.

     

    Again, I will ask that Tessitura and Element work together to provide to users an FAQ sheet so that we can fully understand the changes and be able to make better informed decisions on how we will process credit cards and with which company we will use to do that.

     

    Christopher Cuhel | Database Coordinator

    The 5th Avenue Theatre

    1308 5th Avenue Theatre, Seattle WA  98101

    p 206.971.7916 f 206.292.9610

     

    Seattle's Acclaimed Non-Profit Musical Theater Company

     

    Website |  Facebook |  Twitter |  Youtube

     

    From: Tessitura Technical Forum [mailto:forums-technical@tessituranetwork.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Reif
    Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 1:43 PM
    To: Christopher Cuhel
    Subject: RE: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potentia~��6(!�f�

     

    If you store the credit card yourself (as most people have always been doing), then you can issue a refund at any point, just as you have always been able to do. 

    From: Cliff Bailey <bounce-cliffbailey2866@tessituranetwork.com>
    Sent: 8/26/2015 6:58:06 PM

    Chuck,

     

    Thank you very much for your response. It was very informative but didn't specifically address what I need to know.

     

    I realize I had a long post so I want to make my questions more plain;

     

    If you're using element, 120 days after a sale can we use tessitura to refund a credit card?

     

    If not, what do you recommend we do in the case of a show that is canceled where 500 customers need to have their credit cards refunded?

     

    Thanks!



    -------- Original message --------
    From: Chuck Reif <bounce-chuckreif3941@tessituranetwork.com>
    Date: 08/26/2015 2:09 PM (GMT-05:00)
    To: Cliff Bailey <cbailey@kentuckycenter.org>
    Subject: Re: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potential Refunding Nightmare

    It seems as if some clarification is needed here and I hope this helps. 

    Tessitura has always had the ability to store credit cards and we are PA-DSS certified to continue to do that.  Nothing in any new version of Tessitura has changed this ability.  It has also always been the case that some sites have preferred not to store card data and we have the ability to configure the software to do that as well.

    New functionality in v12.1 and v12.5 provides additional new options available for card handling.  Following is a summary of the options currently available.

    1. You can continue to store credit cards as you have done in the past, using them for refunds and automated billing when necessary.
    2. You can decide not to store any credit card data on your system at all.
    3. You can decide not to store actual card data and instead decide to tokenize the cards that you use for automated billing.  This allows you to continue to do automated billing without storing card data.   There is a token storage fee for Element users.  Tokenization is not currently an option for TNS users in the UK and Ireland.
    4. Cards that are tokenized in Tessitura can be used for all of the same purposes that regularly stored cards are.  That means that you can select a tokenized card from the list of stored credit cards and refund directly to it.
    5. Regardless of whether you store any credit card data in Tessitura, Element users in North American can also refund credit card transactions back to the original card by using the Refund by Transaction number feature.  Element’s retention policy for this feature is to store the transaction reference and card data for 120 days.  Payment Express users also have this ability for most transaction types.
    6. If you elect to neither store the card information or tokenize, then you have increased security but have left yourself in a position of not having access to card information after 120 days, in which case you would have to contact the customer if a refund were necessary.

    I want to make it clear that we have not taken away any existing functionality for credit card handling—just provided some new options.  These new options do have some limitations because each of them are designed to provide greater levels of security.

    V12 also introduced support for encrypted card readers—this option was also designed to provide additional security and ease of PCI compliance by keeping credit card data off of your network.  However, these new types of secured readers are not required—you can continue to use your existing card swipes.  Doing so does mean that unencrypted card data is transmitted on your network as it has always been.

    It is possible that future security regulations may force us to restrict the options available in Tessitura for card storage and handling.  But at the moment, we are providing only additional capability to provide you with more options.  Data security, and in particular payment data security, is something that we take very seriously and so we are always studying and participating in best practices in this area.


    Hope this information helps explain things.

     

    From: Cliff Bailey <bounce-cliffbailey2866@tessituranetwork.com>
    Sent: 8/26/2015 8:58:43 AM

    We recently switched to Element and so far, for the most part, it has been running smoothly. However, we recently found that Element only keeps transactions in their system for 120 days. This was not obvious to us in any documentation we had and is not included as part of the installation process. I’m sure it’s out there somewhere but suffice it to say, we didn't see it.

    That means after 120 days you can’t process a refund as you normally would in Tessitura because refunds are based on transactions. If the transaction has been removed from Element it can’t be referenced and an error will be generated upon authorization.

    If we needed to do a refund to a patron’s credit card after 120 days we can’t actually process the refund in Tessitura which would leave us with two options according to Element when I spoke with them at the conference. First, we could issue the credit to their account for another performance. This is basically a no-go for us. We don’t want to anger the patron by not crediting their card back in the case of an issue being our fault. Our second option would be to call Element and have them do a “blind credit”. In that case, we would need to provide the credit card information, which we would have to call the patron to obtain, and then tell Element how much to credit to the account. This is the process we would have to use.

    It may not be obvious why this is a problem and at first I didn't think it was either. So every now and again we might have to get a patron’s credit card information and then put in a call to Element, no big deal. Then our director of ticketing brought up show cancellations. This happens more often than I thought it did and we often start selling shows more than 120 days out.  

    I wrote a query to see how bad of a problem this could potentially be. There were 314 shows since the 2012-2013 season that had tickets bought more than 120 days before the show. 41 of those shows sold to 100+ patrons (not tickets, but patrons) before that mark. One of them sold to 505 patrons before that mark. That show took place just last year and was at an outdoor venue which can be a volatile situation.

    If that show would have had to cancel day of or the day before our organization would have needed to have contact with 505 patrons, get their credit card information, and then call Element to have each one credited. Right now, to my understanding, other than on account credits (again, a no-go) we have no other option.

    Element is not going to change their practice of deleting transaction after 120 days. We are but a small segment of a very high security business. The only fix, according to Element, would be for Tessitura to implement a way for blind credits to be processed within the application.

    We're basically waiting for Tessitura to issue a fix to this and we can't know for sure when that will be or if they even plan on doing it. Blind credit processing could be a security risk as a person could issue a credit to a card without a transaction being associated. This means an unscrupulous person could issue blind credits in order to steal from the organization. I’m sure Tessitura would be hesitant to implement it and so I don't expect it any time soon if ever (here’s hoping I'm wrong!)

    Does anybody have any ideas on what could be done about this? I'm hoping I've just missed something.

    Thanks!



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  • $organization in reply to Former Member

    Thanks, Todd.

    Unknown said:

    [...] For the time being, I recommend not replying to this thread via email, but rather posting on the website itself. 

    Hear, hear. I would join in recommending this for all threads, all the time. 

  • Former Member
    Former Member $organization in reply to Christopher Cuhel

    Here, here! Thanks Chuck.

     

    From: Tessitura Technical Forum [mailto:forums-technical@tessituranetwork.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Cuhel
    Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 7:14 PM
    To: Gloria Ormsby
    Subject: RE: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potentia

     

    Thank you all for taking time to put this all together. This makes MUCH more sense now Chuck now that all the pieces are in the same pie. 

    From: Chuck Reif <bounce-chuckreif3941@tessituranetwork.com>
    Sent: 8/26/2015 6:39:08 PM

    As others have noted, this important forum post seems to be splintered into several threads.  We're looking into why that is and how we might fix it but in the meantime I wanted to try to clarify again.  First this post for some more detailed information.  In summary:

    No credit card functionality whatsoever has been removed in V12.  Whatever you could do before you can still do.

    We have added tokenization to V12.5 as an option for Element and Payment Express users.  This is totally optional, although there is a storage charge for Element users.  Contrary to what has been said in some posts here, tokens do NOT expire.  They can be used for recurring billing and refunds and additional charges for as long as card (stored in Element's servers) is valid.

    We have also added the new ability to refund by transaction reference number.  This is also completely optional.  As noted here, those transaction reference numbers in Element's case are removed from their servers after 120 days.  Even after this 120 day period you can still refund to a card number, provided that you have stored it either as a token or as you are doing now, encrypted in the Tessitura database.

    We are working internally to see what additional learning resources we can bring to this issue to make it clearer.  Obviously, with the introduction of chipped cards (EMV) in the United States, there are many questions that come up. 

    The short answer here is that no credit card functionality has been removed in v12.  You can continue to operate as you do now and work to decide which, if any, of the new options you want to take advantage of.

     



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  • Former Member
    Former Member $organization in reply to Christopher Cuhel

    Here, here! Thanks Chuck.

     

    From: Tessitura Technical Forum [mailto:forums-technical@tessituranetwork.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Cuhel
    Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 7:14 PM
    To: Gloria Ormsby
    Subject: RE: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potentia

     

    Thank you all for taking time to put this all together. This makes MUCH more sense now Chuck now that all the pieces are in the same pie. 

    From: Chuck Reif <bounce-chuckreif3941@tessituranetwork.com>
    Sent: 8/26/2015 6:39:08 PM

    As others have noted, this important forum post seems to be splintered into several threads.  We're looking into why that is and how we might fix it but in the meantime I wanted to try to clarify again.  First this post for some more detailed information.  In summary:

    No credit card functionality whatsoever has been removed in V12.  Whatever you could do before you can still do.

    We have added tokenization to V12.5 as an option for Element and Payment Express users.  This is totally optional, although there is a storage charge for Element users.  Contrary to what has been said in some posts here, tokens do NOT expire.  They can be used for recurring billing and refunds and additional charges for as long as card (stored in Element's servers) is valid.

    We have also added the new ability to refund by transaction reference number.  This is also completely optional.  As noted here, those transaction reference numbers in Element's case are removed from their servers after 120 days.  Even after this 120 day period you can still refund to a card number, provided that you have stored it either as a token or as you are doing now, encrypted in the Tessitura database.

    We are working internally to see what additional learning resources we can bring to this issue to make it clearer.  Obviously, with the introduction of chipped cards (EMV) in the United States, there are many questions that come up. 

    The short answer here is that no credit card functionality has been removed in v12.  You can continue to operate as you do now and work to decide which, if any, of the new options you want to take advantage of.

     



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  • $organization in reply to Chris Jensen

    Tanya, 

    Unfortunately I believe your information is incorrect though I wish it wasn't. At first I thought the same as you and though it seemed like an annoying way for Element to make money, it wasn't a big deal. We could just keep ongoing donor information and simply remove tokens after a performance is over. We could make that work.

    However, I found that with or without tokens, Element only keeps transactions and credit card information for 120 days. That information is straight from Element.



    [edited by: Cliff Bailey at 12:43 PM (GMT -6) on 26 Aug 2015]
  • $organization in reply to Chris Jensen

    My understanding of this is that if you save the cc information via the token then you can refund as long as you want.  The catch is it costs money to store the token with Element.  The 120 days is the amount of time you can refund without having stored a token.  You can chose to store a token for any transaction where the performance is more than 120 days in the future and then purge the token after the performance.  However, as I said – there is a cost in storing the token.  So it’s a balance of that cost vs. the cost of a cancelled performance and calling patrons for their information in order to refund if they purchase more than 120 days before.

     

    We also would be interested in hearing from the network on this issue.

     

     

    From: Tessitura Technical Forum [mailto:forums-technical@tessituranetwork.com] On Behalf Of Gloria Ormsby
    Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 11:31 AM
    To: Hoffmann, Tanya
    Subject: RE: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potentia~��6(!�f�

     

    I’m in the process of signing on and was actually going to sign the contract this morning until I read your post. This is what Element is telling me. I think they are saying it won’t be an issue with tokenization. Can someone from the network please chime in to clarify this?

     

    Currently Tessitura supports the refund option which needs a transaction to match up against in the system to perform. We purge card data and reference number from our system after 120-days for compliance reasons which means a refund can no longer “match” up against anything in the system, hence the limitation. Tessitura has an option to integrate to the credit transaction which doesn’t require a matching transaction on the other side and will just process. The merchant just has to have the card number or be using Element’s tokenization to call up the token and refund the card. Tessitura is aware of this new transaction method and is currently reviewing it so any additional questions on that can be directed to them but the merchant should know not to expect an answer on it right away.

     

    From: Tessitura Technical Forum [mailto:forums-technical@tessituranetwork.com] On Behalf Of Cliff Bailey
    Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 9:18 AM
    To: Gloria Ormsby
    Subject: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potential Refunding Nightmare

     

    We recently switched to Element and so far, for the most part, it has been running smoothly. However, we recently found that Element only keeps transactions in their system for 120 days. This was not obvious to us in any documentation we had and is not included as part of the installation process. I’m sure it’s out there somewhere but suffice it to say, we didn't see it.

    That means after 120 days you can’t process a refund as you normally would in Tessitura because refunds are based on transactions. If the transaction has been removed from Element it can’t be referenced and an error will be generated upon authorization.

    If we needed to do a refund to a patron’s credit card after 120 days we can’t actually process the refund in Tessitura which would leave us with two options according to Element when I spoke with them at the conference. First, we could issue the credit to their account for another performance. This is basically a no-go for us. We don’t want to anger the patron by not crediting their card back in the case of an issue being our fault. Our second option would be to call Element and have them do a “blind credit”. In that case, we would need to provide the credit card information, which we would have to call the patron to obtain, and then tell Element how much to credit to the account. This is the process we would have to use.

    It may not be obvious why this is a problem and at first I didn't think it was either. So every now and again we might have to get a patron’s credit card information and then put in a call to Element, no big deal. Then our director of ticketing brought up show cancellations. This happens more often than I thought it did and we often start selling shows more than 120 days out.  

    I wrote a query to see how bad of a problem this could potentially be. There were 314 shows since the 2012-2013 season that had tickets bought more than 120 days before the show. 41 of those shows sold to 100+ patrons (not tickets, but patrons) before that mark. One of them sold to 505 patrons before that mark. That show took place just last year and was at an outdoor venue which can be a volatile situation.

    If that show would have had to cancel day of or the day before our organization would have needed to have contact with 505 patrons, get their credit card information, and then call Element to have each one credited. Right now, to my understanding, other than on account credits (again, a no-go) we have no other option.

    Element is not going to change their practice of deleting transaction after 120 days. We are but a small segment of a very high security business. The only fix, according to Element, would be for Tessitura to implement a way for blind credits to be processed within the application.

    We're basically waiting for Tessitura to issue a fix to this and we can't know for sure when that will be or if they even plan on doing it. Blind credit processing could be a security risk as a person could issue a credit to a card without a transaction being associated. This means an unscrupulous person could issue blind credits in order to steal from the organization. I’m sure Tessitura would be hesitant to implement it and so I don't expect it any time soon if ever (here’s hoping I'm wrong!)

    Does anybody have any ideas on what could be done about this? I'm hoping I've just missed something.

     

    Thanks!



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  • $organization in reply to Former Member

    Hi Chris, we are working on merging this topic into one thread; thanks for bringing it up.

    Our community platform attempts to post replies via email using the post subject--I think the reason this one is getting split into several threads is due to the odd characters in the subject.  For the time being, I recommend not replying to this thread via email, but rather posting on the website itself. 

    The original post is here and this thread has several of the replies and clarifications.

    Thanks,
    Todd

    Tessitura Network Webmaster

  • $organization in reply to Former Member

    Replying to this by e-mail and CC-ing the webmaster in the hope that this important discussion, which has somehow become split across seven threads (and counting), can somehow be merged into one.

     

    Thanks.

     

    —Chris

     

    ********************

    Chris Jensen

    Database Administrator

    Information Technology & Services

    Guthrie Theater

    612.225.6052

     

     

     

    From: Tessitura Technical Forum [mailto:forums-technical@tessituranetwork.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Reif
    Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 3:31 PM
    To: Jensen, Chris <ChrisJ@guthrietheater.org>
    Subject: RE: [Tessitura Technical Forum] Element Deletes Transactions After 120 Days – A Potentia~    ��6(!�f�

     

    That is exactly right.  Refund by Transaction Number is a new feature which allows refunds without storing credit card data at all (for 120 days in Element's case).  The ability to do refunds on credit cards when you have the data (either the actual card number or a token) is not at all changed and can still be used as it always has.

    From: Dan Spees <bounce-danielspees8805@tessituranetwork.com>
    Sent: 8/26/2015 3:27:15 PM

    Perhaps some of the confusion is being generated by the Note statement in the Refund Prior Payments section of the What's New in v12.5 document (page 67).  It reads...

    "Note: If your payment processing provider is Element, payments that are older than 120 days cannot be refunded with this functionality and will return an error on authorization."

    It seems that some have read this to mean that that the Refund Prior Payments button will be the only method of issuing a credit and that it would require the Element Transaction to still be available which will not be the case after 120 days.

    If further seams that Chuck is saying that there is and will continue to be a method that is different than the "Refund Prior Payments" button that will allow a credit to be issued as long as either the card or token are on file.

    If the understanding above is correct, then there doesn't seem to be any lost functionality.  The current method of issuing a credit will remain and the new v12.5 Refund Prior Payment button will work in any case where the Element transaction still exists.

    Chuck?  Did I get that right?

     



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  • $organization in reply to Former Member

    Thanks, Todd.

    Unknown said:

    [...] For the time being, I recommend not replying to this thread via email, but rather posting on the website itself. 

    Hear, hear. I would join in recommending this for all threads, all the time.